Lost: The Rewatch Thread

[Farsight]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

“One by one, you build a trap…piece by piece…you wait til your opponent lands here on the ol’ cheese wheel and then, if you set it up just right, you spring the trap.”

Nice.

There appear to be even more signs that Cuse & Lindelof had the major arcs outlined from the beginning than even I would have guessed. I'd love to see someone try to rationally argue that they've made it up as they went...

Your recap has me convinced Locke will stay dead. He was always a follower of MiB, he just never realized it. When he encountered Smokey, he described what he saw as beautiful. He unquestioningly followed any order that came from a supernatural source. He got Boone killed for selfish reasons. He killed Eyepatch-guy to protect his secret shame (his paraplegic past). He sabotaged his "friends" chances at rescue numerous times because he decided his beliefs meant more than their safety. Assuming Christian is Jacob, Locke flubbed the one bit of aid Jacob gave him, choosing his selfish need to be the "special leader" over turning the wheel himself to selflessly save the island.

Locke is, at his core, as corrupt as Ben. I don't see how Locke's arc could end any other way.

[Jesse Custer]

Originally Posted by Farsight

Nice.

There appear to be even more signs that Cuse & Lindelof had the major arcs outlined from the beginning than even I would have guessed. I'd love to see someone try to rationally argue that they've made it up as they went...

Your recap has me convinced Locke will stay dead. He was always a follower of MiB, he just never realized it. When he encountered Smokey, he described what he saw as beautiful. He unquestioningly followed any order that came from a supernatural source. He got Boone killed for selfish reasons. He killed Eyepatch-guy to protect his secret shame (his paraplegic past). He sabotaged his "friends" chances at rescue numerous times because he decided his beliefs meant more than their safety. Assuming Christian is Jacob, Locke flubbed the one bit of aid Jacob gave him, choosing his selfish need to be the "special leader" over turning the wheel himself to selflessly save the island.

Locke is, at his core, as corrupt as Ben. I don't see how Locke's arc could end any other way.

I'm torn on Locke. I agree with most of what you say here, but First Season Locke isn't necessarily corrupt at his core to my eyes. He's broken, from a lifetime of pain that was not his fault, and he's seeking meaning and love. This impulse is deeply human.

Locke spends a lot of the first season helping others with their issues and problems. Where he errs, I'd argue, is in never turning inward to heal his own issues, and in never allowing the others to get close enough to help. It's those issues, combined with the spark of wanting and needing to mean something, that allows him to be manipulated and corrupted. Because he has not/cannot validate himself to himself, he turns for validation to a force he does not understand - and this force cannot be trusted.

Of course, at the same time, there's his arguable sacrifice of poor Boone. Like I said, I think Locke's true self is mirrored in Claire's dream sequence - torn between the selfless urge to help those around him accept and come to terms with their pain, and the selfish urge to bury his own pain and elevate himself above the others to compensate for a lifetime of inadequacy.

The amount of real world resonance in both spiritual and scientific realms is pretty damn impressive. I'm hopeful that Locke will recieve a chance at redemption.

[Jesse Custer]

Originally Posted by Farsight

Assuming Christian is Jacob, Locke flubbed the one bit of aid Jacob gave him, choosing his selfish need to be the "special leader" over turning the wheel himself to selflessly save the island.

This brings up a very interesting point for me. Doesn't Locke converse with Christian just before he finally turns the wheel? And in that conversation, doesn't Locke tell Christian that Richard told him he'd have to die?

And in response, doesn't Christian say "That's why they call it a sacrifice?"

Based on what we've seen before, and what we know now, does that sound like the sort of thing Jacob would invoke? It seems much more like the MiB urging him on.

Then again, if Jacob has already anticipated/known all of what's happened, it could be that he's just helping John on the way to his death, in order to fulfill his own killing. He could essentially be talking about himself as 'the sacrifice.'

[Ryan Bean]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

Locke is not the only person who has benefited from Island healing. Rose has cancer before she comes to the Island, but is healed. We see Ben's injuries after the Ajira flight healing faster than they should.

yeah yeah I know. My point was from the PILOT, from Locke sitting there smiling in the rain, he was separate. He (and Jack) was the focus of the show. We were shown his trials over and over only for him to learn along the way and begin to finally reach his "destiny".
I know him being nothing but a pawn makes theoretical thematic sense, but I can't help feeling that we've been cheated. That Darlton said "JK GUYS! lol had you going there for 4 and a half seasons!"


But it's not over.... in Darlton I trust in Darlton I trust.

btw: Hi! I kind of miss our PMs. Then again it took forever to write those up...

[Jesse Custer]

Originally Posted by Ryan Bean

yeah yeah I know. My point was from the PILOT, from Locke sitting there smiling in the rain, he was separate. He (and Jack) was the focus of the show. We were shown his trials over and over only for him to learn along the way and begin to finally reach his "destiny".
I know him being nothing but a pawn makes theoretical thematic sense, but I can't help feeling that we've been cheated. That Darlton said "JK GUYS! lol had you going there for 4 and a half seasons!"

How have we been cheated? It's pretty clear from this rewatch that Locke's desperate need to have a 'destiny' and to be special is what made him such a fine prospect for the MiB. If anything, the way this particular plot line has been structured makes the tale a richer experience because it practically demands that you rewatch, and in doing so, a different tone to the story plays out. The first time through, we're along on Locke's journey. The second time through, we're watching it with the type of foreknowledge that Jacob and the MiB apparently possess. That's pretty brilliant, in my humble opinion.

In some ways, I'd compare the reveal of Locke's having been duped to the revelation that Keyser Soze was Kevin Spacey all along. Sure, on one level the reveal negates the 'truth' of what's come before, but to focus solely on that is to miss the forest for the trees, so to speak.

All that said, I do hope that Locke is somehow given the opportunity to truly seize his own destiny. But if this is how his story ends I'm fine with it - it's a cautionary tale wrapped inside a messianic legend.

BTW: Hello! I enjoyed those also. It's fun to wrestle with the angel, so to speak. I invite you to contribute your thoughts here - there's going to be an increasing amount of eye-rollingly pretentious theological/philosophical pontificating on my part as I continue this project, and I'd love to read your opinions.

[Ryan Bean]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

How have we been cheated? It's pretty clear from this rewatch that Locke's desperate need to have a 'destiny' and to be special is what made him such a fine prospect for the MiB. If anything, the way this particular plot line has been structured makes the tale a richer experience because it practically demands that you rewatch, and in doing so, a different tone to the story plays out. The first time through, we're along on Locke's journey. The second time through, we're watching it with the type of foreknowledge that Jacob and the MiB apparently possess. That's pretty brilliant, in my humble opinion.

In some ways, I'd compare the reveal of Locke's having been duped to the revelation that Keyser Soze was Kevin Spacey all along. Sure, on one level the reveal negates the 'truth' of what's come before, but to focus solely on that is to miss the forest for the trees, so to speak.

All that said, I do hope that Locke is somehow given the opportunity to truly seize his own destiny. But if this is how his story ends I'm fine with it - it's a cautionary tale wrapped inside a messianic legend.

BTW: Hello! I enjoyed those also. It's fun to wrestle with the angel, so to speak. I invite you to contribute your thoughts here - there's going to be an increasing amount of eye-rollingly pretentious theological/philosophical pontificating on my part as I continue this project, and I'd love to read your opinions.

I'm not sure if I'll have time to fully commit to this thread because life is pretty hectic at the moment, but I'll probably lurk with the occasional thought. Though I must say your recaps and analysis('s?) have been great.

Anyways, Locke: I feel like that's a lot of assuming and a lot of guessing. I mean we're assuming that the MiB is the one who's been leading Locke on all this time right? Was it really a huge mousetrap-machine to get someone else to kill Jacob? Why put Locke through all that when Ben was the one who would do the deed? Why give Locke signs, have the Island communicate with him, have the monster spare him? (I've missed it but you guys probably went over who the smoke monster answers to? and who was in the shack?)

I'm not sure if I like a show that demands its viewers watch the entire thing twice. I absolutely love feeling compelled to, however.

I'm still not over the rug-pulled-out feeling... BUT I suppose I can view all Locke's been through as a series of failures and hubris leading up to a final one...
That's really fucking depressing, though.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Ryan Bean

I know this is backtracking a bit...and has probably been covered to death here...

But if Locke was not special and is really dead and was just played the whole time........ why was his spine healed?

Cooper is also Nick Andopoulos's Dad in Freaks & Geeks. I can't decide which one he was more of a dick in.

The island has electromagnetic properties. We learned in one of Rose's flashbacks that there are "healing spots" around the world that are matches for certain people's biomagnetc properties. The "healing spot" in Australia did not work for Rose; the Island did. I think the healing aspect of the island is separate from people's faith in it, though Locke and Ben would certainly connect them.

Originally Posted by Farsight

Nice.

There appear to be even more signs that Cuse & Lindelof had the major arcs outlined from the beginning than even I would have guessed. I'd love to see someone try to rationally argue that they've made it up as they went...

Cuse & Lindelof have said from the very beginning of the show they knew how it would end. They knew what the major story would be, but they didn't have all the story arcs or players set up to get them there; that's what was being worked out as the show went on.

[A-Pathetic]

Regarding whether or not Locke knew Boone was going to die, I remember thinking he did know at the time. With hindsight, and with Custer generously pointing out the father/son parallels between the two along with all of the faith talk I'm starting to wonder if they weren't aiming for Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac. From some random site I googled:

When Isaac became a young boy, God spoke to Abraham and commanded him to take his son to Mount Moriah and offer him as a sacrifice to God. This was God’s test of Abraham’s faith. Abraham loved his son very much, but did not hesitate to follow God’s words for he was a man whose faith in God was strong.

Of course, in the Bible it was only the willingness to make the sacrifice that mattered. It's easy to see that Locke would have been so anxious to show how faithful he was that he would have followed anything at that point. When Boone was in the plane, it's very possible that Locke honestly didn't know if the sacrifice would be necessary or the willingness to sacrifice, sparing Boone. Regardless, Locke would have seen it as a test of faith that he would have been anxious to pass.

[Ryan Bean]

Originally Posted by Diva

The island has electromagnetic properties. We learned in one of Rose's flashbacks that there are "healing spots" around the world that are matches for certain people's biomagnetc properties. The "healing spot" in Australia did not work for Rose; the Island did. I think the healing aspect of the island is separate from people's faith in it, though Locke and Ben would certainly connect them.



Cuse & Lindelof have said from the very beginning of the show they knew how it would end. They knew what the major story would be, but they didn't have all the story arcs or players set up to get them there; that's what was being worked out as the show went on.

Honestly I think the only valid criticism of that sort is bringing up the (apparently) FUCKING MASSIVE importance of Walt and Aaron in Seasons 1 & 2

[Feral Akodon]

Originally Posted by Farsight

Nice.

There appear to be even more signs that Cuse & Lindelof had the major arcs outlined from the beginning than even I would have guessed. I'd love to see someone try to rationally argue that they've made it up as they went...

The main big arc around the final players could be easily being drawn in few words like Borges or Bioy-Casares (a Lost club book author) did long time ago. The minutia was added after that. The main betrayals and scheme seems perfectly planned.

[Farsight]

Originally Posted by Feral Akodon

The main big arc around the final players could be easily being drawn in few words like Borges or Bioy-Casares (a Lost club book author) did long time ago. The minutia was added after that. The main betrayals and scheme seems perfectly planned.

Exactly. It would be crazy to try to detail 120-ish hours of TV before you start (especially when you can't even be sure all the actors will be in the cast in 5 years). But as the pieces continue to fall into place, we're seeing more and more signs big and small that "they have a plan" (to paraphrase a show that used the line despite not having one).

My favorite sign of their master plan is still the flashback itself. It's very cool to see the older episodes now with the realization that there has always been time travel, only that we were the travellers.

Originally Posted by Diva

Cuse & Lindelof have said from the very beginning of the show they knew how it would end.

And there were plenty of people who didn't (and still don't) believe them. Of course, with all the evidence to the contrary, most of those people have faded away.

Originally Posted by Ryan Bean

Honestly I think the only valid criticism of that sort is bringing up the (apparently) FUCKING MASSIVE importance of Walt and Aaron in Seasons 1 & 2

A lot can happen in one season.

Walt and Aaron would likely have their important roles as adults (or at least, not as infants or kids), so I'd expect to learn of their stories in a different manner.

Why put Locke through all that when Ben was the one who would do the deed?

Keep in mind that Ben did not exist even in concept during season 1. I suspect that Locke was -always- destined for a bad ending, but exactly how that would play out hadn't yet been determined. Perhaps the original intent was for Locke himself to kill Jacob (he certainly shared Ben's frustration at not having enough of Jacob's love and attention, even before Locke knew Jacob's name). Assuming that Jacob/Christian and MiB/Smokey were always part of the end-game (which seems likely), we're seeing that even in season 1, Locke's gullible nature made him the perfect rube for the island's dark forces.

I'm still not over the rug-pulled-out feeling... BUT I suppose I can view all Locke's been through as a series of failures and hubris leading up to a final one...
That's really fucking depressing, though.

It sure is!

Keep in mind that we still have one more chance to see this arc end differently: Jack. He's essentially become a disciple of John Locke; now we have to see whether he can avoid the same fate.

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

Doesn't Locke converse with Christian just before he finally turns the wheel? And in that conversation, doesn't Locke tell Christian that Richard told him he'd have to die?

And in response, doesn't Christian say "That's why they call it a sacrifice?"

In that scene, when Locke repeats what Richard said, Christian pauses. He didn't seem to be expecting that line, which would be odd if it were part of his plan all along.

Assume that Christian is Jacob's avatar. Locke tells him that Alpert (Jacob's trusted ally) has told him that he has to die. Jacob's knowledge of the future has probably made him aware that Locke -will- die. Jacob also knows that Locke already failed to make a sacrifice the first time (when he let Ben turn the wheel). I think that line matches Jacob pretty well.

Then again, if Jacob has already anticipated/known all of what's happened, it could be that he's just helping John on the way to his death, in order to fulfill his own killing. He could essentially be talking about himself as 'the sacrifice.'

That too.

[ShiftyEyes]

Originally Posted by Diva

The island has electromagnetic properties. We learned in one of Rose's flashbacks that there are "healing spots" around the world that are matches for certain people's biomagnetc properties. The "healing spot" in Australia did not work for Rose; the Island did. I think the healing aspect of the island is separate from people's faith in it, though Locke and Ben would certainly connect them.

But the island is certainly selective about who gets healed. For example, Ben's tumor and Jack's appendix. I'm still trying to work out the significance of Jack having appendicitis. Is it simply that they weren't meant to leave the island? But if they weren't, then none of the events of season 5 could have taken place.

[Jesse Custer]

These episodes are fun, but they don't offer a ton of stuff to chew on in terms of the show's larger plot - they're great, character-based television (generally speaking), but that's not really what I'm aiming to write about here, unless it connects to the overarcing story in some way. As such, I'm cramming these episodes into a shorter, more focused recap.

Do No Harm (ep. 20)

Christian Shepard: "Committment is what makes you tick, Jack. The problem is, you're just not good at letting go."

Random thoughts:

This show is not afraid to get a little gruesome on us. Jack ventilates Boone's collapsed lung with a metal spike. Hardcore.

Jack's Best Man in his flashback to pre-wedding shenanigans is played by Zack Ward, probably best known as Scott Farkus, the bully with yellow eyes (So help me God! Yellow eyes!) in A Christmas Story. According to Lostpedia, it's his character we see being beaten up by schoolyard bullies in White Rabbit.

Note the black and white yin and yang symbol on the t-shirt Jack wears during their first scene.

Great Jin Line Delivery: "Oh."

As Boone dies, Aaron is born. This is relatively stock dramatic symbolism, but the Island's fertility issues make me wonder if there's something more to this than just symbolism. Does Boone's death trigger/allow for the birth of Aaron? There's certainly something to be said for the way the notion of balance is reinforced by this idea.

Jack: "Don't tell me what I can't do!"

This episode starts to delve more into Jack's 'over-commitment issues' in a big way. His quest to save Boone's life isn't about Boone as much as it's about the notion that he can't let go. It's a self-centered need, not a selfless one. In this, as in other ways, he mirrors Locke more than either of them would like to admit.

I'm almost positive that Kate says 'fuck' as she falls and breaks the liquor bottles in the jungle. It's realllly hard to hear, but it's there.

As Kate helps Claire give birth, Season 5 Sawyer is watching from the shadows. Aaron is clearly important to this story but it's still not clear why, or how. Is it because, as Farsight suggests, Aaron will become Jacob? Is it because Aaron will become the MiB? And if Aaron's destined to grow into one of these enigmatic figures how will he do so, considering that he's been left off-Island with Claire's mother? Will he seek the Island when he learns his mother died/turned into a smirking ghost there?

The Greater Good (ep. 21)

Sayid: "John, no more lies."

Another great Sayid-isode. His flashback is compelling stuff, and the on-Island business regarding the fallout from the death of Boone is stirring stuff.

Random thoughts:

Another heavily character-based episode. Shannon's grief over Boone's death humanizes her further, and Sayid's inability to help her or his flashbackfriend is believable and sad.

I didn't remember Locke's admission at Boone's grave ("It was my fault"), but I'm glad that they included it. It makes Locke seem more human and not as coldly-driven to have him honestly (apparently honestly at least) grapple with guilt over the death.

I'm also grateful yet again for Naveen Andrews, who turns his questioning of Locke's story into an artful game of "I See You." Sayid reminds us that, much as we may want to trust Locke it's not clear that we should.

Asam (Sayid's Martyr buddy): "So much for my philosophy degree." I can relate, my Muslim friend. I can relate.

From the looks of him, Asam is Gerard Butler's long-lost skinny brother.

It was about halfway through this episode that I realized: Hey! Locke's legs are all better. Why is this? What happened, or didn't happen, to grant him a new license on mobility?

According to Locke and Sayid's conversation by the Beechcraft they've now been on the Island for a month's time.

Hurley singing James Brown (poorly) in order to calm Aaron: priceless.

Aaron claming down at the sound of Hurley's voice is pretty damn adorable.

John admits to sabotaging the attempt at triangulation that Sayid, Sawyer and Shannon made earlier in the season - he was the one that bopped our favorite Iraqi on the head. John thinks that information like this ought to enable Sayid and the others to trust him. As Sayid notes, pointing out that John has been carrying a concealed weapon, admitting to having a secret after being called out on it does not earn a person trust - it earns them 'adaptability.' Adaptability is a trait that both Locke and Benjamin Linus have in spades.

Born To Run (ep. 22)

Jack: "My God...what is this thing?"

Artz makes his first appearance (that I remember at any rate), claiming that monsoon season is coming. This never occurs on the show, and as someone noted earlier in the thread it's probable that the Island's movement (Sayid notes the sudden, inexplicable shifting of tides) pulls them out of the danger zone.

Tom, Kate's childhood friend in this episode, is played by MacKenzie Astin - Sean Astin's younger brother, better known as Dodger, the lovable homeless scamp that helps a bunch of vomiting, alligator-faced, pimple-pocked nightmare children put on a fashion show in Garbage Pail Kids: The Movie.

Finally, Locke reveals the Hatch to Sayid and Jack. This episode really highlights the ways in which Locke and Jack handle their respective secrets, and how similarly they justify keeping others out of the information loop. Locke, as is typical of O'Quinn's portrayal, appears to appreciate this irony. Jack, being Jack, just gets all pissy and self-righteous about it.

Great Charlie Line: "This is track two. It's called 'Monster Eats The Pilot.'"

That's a great band name, I thought. Someone's going to steal that. Sure enough, here they are on MySpace.

I love that Kate and Tom's time capsule is a New Kids On The Block lunchbox. That's a cute, small joke and an example of attention to detail. Note that in The Incident, it's this lunchbox that Kate is stealing when she has her encounter with Jacob. Jacob buys it for her, further cementing the notion that, while Jacob may be a sympathetic or even 'good' character, he's got no qualms with helping folks along to their painful, painful destinies.

And speaking of Kate, her backstory is much more interesting to me this time around. This time through it's about the emotions, not the mystery. The lightly-etched history between childhood friends and the awful way that Tom dies make that plane seem meaningful in ways it didn't the first time I watched. And while Kate remains sympathetic, given both her on-Island kindness and the hints that she's not a cold-blooded murderer, it's much clearer why the Yellow Eyed Marshall Demon would be as contemptuous of her and as cautious around her as we see him.

Ominous Walt Line: "Don't open it. Don't open it, Mr. Locke. Don't open that thing."

Walt apparently recieves some kind of psychic flash when he touches John Locke. Is this meant to represent Walt getting a flash of future events? Is this a warning from the 'Island'/Jacob? It's not clear. But if 'whatever happened, happened,' holds true then Walt's words are so much dust in the wind. Locke has already opened the Hatch, further down the time-line.

Sawyer: "There ain't anything on this Island worth staying for." Well, he's certainly changed.

Michael: "We can stay here. Just you and me. We don't have to go."

Walt: "Yes we do."

Given Walt's psychic-friends moment, you can read this comment one of two ways: (1) they need to get away from the Island, because something 'bad' is going to happen, or (2) Walt knows that leaving is what Michael and he are going to do, giving them no apparent choice in the matter. They have to go because they've always gone.

Tomorrow: Exodus, the series one finale.

This week: The Start of Season II.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

I love that Kate and Tom's time capsule is a New Kids On The Block lunchbox.

Really? That's pretty great.

[Jesse Custer]

Originally Posted by Diva

Really? That's pretty great.

It was adorable. And (as I've now edited in above) it's this lunchbox that Jacob buys for Kate in The Incident - a really nice choice of detail.

[Diva]

That's what I thought was great. The call back from Season 5. I was wondering why you hadn't specifically called it out.

[Jesse Custer]

Originally Posted by Diva

That's what I thought was great. The call back from Season 5. I was wondering why you hadn't specifically called it out.

My hand-scrawled notes took a bit to suss out. Monday mornings - gotta love them.

[Syd]

I love that nice, subtle moment in DO NO HARM where Jin, still angry at Sun, has to relay information about Claire to Jack through her (that's the wost sentence ever). Great acting on Daniel Dae Kim's part.

In answer to the monsoon question Jesse, in one of the Missing Pieces Lost webisode things, Arzt tells Michael he only said that to get attention. It's a weird, retcon, ass covering moment, and I much prefer your theory of the Island moving.

Dammit Walt. Please do something with him show. Anything. You can't give him bird-killing powers and future-seeing powers and then not do a single thing with him just because *gasp* the actor ages.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

Ominous Walt Line: "Don't open it. Don't open it, Mr. Locke. Don't open that thing."

Walt apparently recieves some kind of psychic flash when he touches John Locke. Is this meant to represent Walt getting a flash of future events? Is this a warning from the 'Island'/Jacob? It's not clear. But if 'whatever happened, happened,' holds true then Walt's words are so much dust in the wind. Locke has already opened the Hatch, further down the time-line.

Your reasoning is right on, but I always really loved this line. After seeing what the Hatch does to Locke in season 2 (he begins to doubt everything, which I love...it just turns him into an office drone again, eventually even turning him into a cripple briefly just to make the symbolism clear...which is perfect). The warning not only seems specific to Locke, it also makes sense in that by opening the Hatch, they create a gigantic shit storm of trouble for everyone involved (Michael, Ana Lucia, Libby, Desmond, Eko, Locke, etc) not to mention whatever defusing the Hatch's powers does to the island, which still remains unclear (but which I predict will become clear next season).

[Feral Akodon]

Originally Posted by Parker

The warning not only seems specific to Locke, it also makes sense in that by opening the Hatch, they create a gigantic shit storm of trouble for everyone involved...

Even before this, there was a hard day for Hume and when he didn't entered the 108 he pretty much sealed the curse of the entire story. I wonder if they bring back Inman Kelvin for more details of the event.

[Farsight]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

This episode starts to delve more into Jack's 'over-commitment issues' in a big way. His quest to save Boone's life isn't about Boone as much as it's about the notion that he can't let go. It's a self-centered need, not a selfless one. In this, as in other ways, he mirrors Locke more than either of them would like to admit.

That, more than anything else, is why I think Locke stays dead. He and Jack are on the same path, and there's likely only going to be enough time in the last season for one of them to avoid where that path ends.

Michael: "We can stay here. Just you and me. We don't have to go."

Walt: "Yes we do."

Given Walt's psychic-friends moment, you can read this comment one of two ways: (1) they need to get away from the Island, because something 'bad' is going to happen, or (2) Walt knows that leaving is what Michael and he are going to do

Note how many of Walt's paranormal scenes can be explained by him having memories of what has yet to happen.

Originally Posted by Syd

You can't give him bird-killing powers

Like this one!

Originally Posted by Syd

then not do a single thing with him just because *gasp* the actor ages.

Long before the time jump, they were asked how they could have a kid in the cast of a show that progresses a month every season, and they said they knew what they were doing. So I assume that by showing Walt with some regularity in season 5 (even hinting that he will end up back on the island), they're making sure everyone recognizes him when he shows up in season 6...

I have faith.

[Jesse Custer]

Originally Posted by Farsight

I have faith.

Which means you're destined for strangulation at the hands of a lemur-eyed man, sadly enough.

For all: Some new Jeff Jensen musings have popped up over at EW. There's "The Cult of Cult TV," and "15 Must-Answer Mysteries".

[gobblox]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

Which means you're destined for strangulation at the hands of a lemur-eyed man, sadly enough.

For all: Some new Jeff Jensen musings have popped up over at EW. There's "The Cult of Cult TV," and "15 Must-Answer Mysteries".

I enjoyed reading through that list of Mysteries. Cool to see them reference the Lost Experience when talking about the numbers.

[Jesse Custer]

Exodus, Part I (ep. 23)

Rousseau: "The Others are coming."

Much as I thoroughly enjoy the character-oriented flashback episodes on this show, at the end of the day I'm a total whore for the overarching plot. That's what gets my biscuits warm. And here, at the very end of Season One, the writers pull the strings Bela Lugosi-style, unleashing a torrent of plot-threads that they will willfully pick at, tease over and flat-out ignore for seasons to come. Bless them.

The sorts of things that make Lost great television are generously heaped all over this two-part finale: smartly-essayed character work, twisting mysteries, pulpy action and spectacle, emotional truthfulness, and a kind of sadistic glee in torturing the audience. I guess that makes me something of a masochist.

Long story short: The Others be coming. Jack wants to hide everyone in the newly-revealed Hatch. John wants to see what's inside, and pretends at caring about hiding everyone. Much drama ensues.

Random Thoughts:

- Exodus can be seen as a reference to the Book of Exodus, the second book of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament. It can also be seen as a reference to Kirk Hammett's old metal band but should not be.

-The fourth book of the Hebrew Bible? Numbers. Both books deal with Moses and his brother Aaron leading the tribe of Israel to the promised land.

- The writers introduce Ana Lucia to us and to Jack, having her meet him in flashback at an airport bar before 815 takes off. Michele Rodriguez took a lot of fan hate for her character/portrayal, and I recall some of it being justified. But I also think the brief scene between her and Jack here is some of the softest, most vulnerable work I've seen her do, and it makes me look forward to re-visiting her character in season two. I'm already planning to argue that the negativity directed at Ana Lucia is based around ideas of gender. We'll see if that hypothesis holds up.

Artz (referring to Hurley): "If you wanna keep a secret, don't tell the fat guy." Nice one, chubby. Pot. Kettle. Black.

- Danielle's story about how the Others came to take her baby seems like outright fabrication to me. Speaking for myself, at this point in time there's only one plot point about her stories that outright bothers me. We'll get to it shortly.

- This episode is the first to use a multiple-flashback structure, in which all the main characters are featured. This must have been difficult and a lot of fun to break in the writers room.

Sawyer: "Small world, huh?"

- Sawyer's revelation to Jack - that he met and spoke with Christian in Sydney - remains genuinely powerful stuff. If Lost had been cancelled after the first season, Josh Holloway and Matthew Fox could have used that scene on their reels for the rest of their lives.

- Great Locke/Rousseau exchange:

Locke: "Where'd you get the scratches?"

Rousseau: "A bush."

Locke: "Mean bush."

- As for Rousseau's story...from the speech she gives in this episode, as compared to the events as we know them from "This Place Is Death," it sounds as though the Black Rock and the Temple are in close proximity to each other. Either that, or the Temple essentially replaced the Black Rock for the writers as the location of/center of the 'sickness/infection/mind control/enlightenment' that Rousseau's crew undergoes. Anyone know if, canonically, the Black Rock and the Temple are in fact close together?

- The constant references to the ship in Rousseau's story sort of aggravate me. In the seasons to come, the ship essentially disappears from the story (making a supremely memorable reappearance in "The Brig"). It resurfaces at the end of season 5, but I'm fuzzy on how the timing of the Black Rock/Temple shenanigans works out and I'd like that clarified in one way or another. Why was her team going back and forth from the ship? Simple curiousity? If she saw the ship as the site of/catalyst for infection why would she bring the castaways there?

- Apparently it can rain on only one part of the Island at a time. It's sunny on the beach, where Michael Sawyer and Jin prepare to set sail, but it's pouring rain in Rousseau's "Dark Territory." Dharma weather control? Bad Island mojo? An artificial/supernatural system? An editing mistake?

- Rousseau tells the castaways, and us, that the Monster is a security system meant to protect the Island - the same explanation that her lover will give her 15 years earlier just before trying to shoot a pregnant woman in the face.

- Walt gives Vincent to Shannon, and it's pretty moving. Nice work by both actors.

- No one says thank you on this show. At least, not when they're upset/angry/depressed. Learn some manners, Lost.

Great Shannon Line:

Shannon: Some arab guy left his bags by me and walked away."

Security: "Could you describe him, please?"

Shannon: "Ummm....Arab?"

- The Black Rock is a terrific set. It looks practical to me, which is a testament to the relative quality of the CGI here (a far cry from the eye-rollingly terrible CGI that typically infests this show) since common sense tells me that there's no way the entire structure was practically built. If it had been practical I imagine they would have used it more. And they should have. It's good stuff.

- As previously noted everywhere, the Black Rock calls 'Portsmouth' home.

- Okay, so Jin and Sun's reunion may have made me mist up.

-It's jarring to see random castaways interacting with and saying goodbye to the raft people. I have no investment in any of them. They are red-shirts to me.

- Okay, so Vincent's swim may have made me mist up a little also. Sue me.

- Locke calls the skeletons in the Black Rock slaves, but it strikes me that there's a better explanation for the ship and the skeletons and I'm not sure that it's been addressed. Australia was originally used as a British prison - the first penal colony there was established in 1788, and it was common practice to ship criminals there throughout the 18th and 19th century. A ship full of criminals and suspicious folks? Sounds a lot like flight 815 to me.

[Feral Akodon]

Anyone got the who is the monster clue? I'm lost :P
There's a game over there too I only got 11!

[Jesse Custer]

Exodus, Part II (ep. 24)

Locke: Do you really think all of this is an accident?....we were brought here for a purpose - a reason - all of us. Each one of us was brought here for a reason."

Jack: "And who brought us here, John?"

Locke: "The Island. The Island brought us here...The Island chose you too, Jack. It's destiny."

Locke: Boone was a sacrifice that the Island demanded. What happened to him was part of a chain of events that lead us here - that lead us down a path - that lead you and me to this day, right now.

Jack: "And where's that path end, John?"

Locke: "It ends at the Hatch....All of this happened so we could open the Hatch."

Jack: "No. We're opening the Hatch so that we can survive."

This conversation between Jack and Locke serves to sum up the cosmic questions being asked on Lost (Fate or coincidence? Determinism or free will? Science or faith?) and to answer them, all in one fell swoop. The answer is both, of course. Science and faith. Fate and coincidence. Determinism and free will. Like the black and white Dharma bagua that will soon be introduced, these seemingly antithetical concepts coexist side by side, incompatible and inseperable.

Jack and Locke spend the majority of this episode working to accomplish the same goal for philosophically different reasons. Jack wants to open the Hatch because he sees it as a hope for survival. Locke wants to open the Hatch because he sees it as his destiny. But no matter the motive, the fact remains that they're working together, riggin the charges to open it. In my opinion, this is a fairly elegant metaphor. The text of their interactions sets them at odds, but the subtext of their actions unites them.

- The idea of Boone as a sacrifice that the Island demanded is deeply troubling to me. As was pointed out a page or so back, the Locke/Boone beechcraft scenario in some ways mirrors the story of Abraham and Isaac in the Bible. However, the Bible paints a different overall story than Lost does. In the Bible, God urges Abraham to sacrifice his son but then, crucially, stays Abe's hand via angelic proxy. Here, there's no literal sacrifice. Locke doesn't willingly take Boone's life by his own hand - he watches as Boone seems to sacrifice himself. And, crucially, 'God' never intervenes.

I don't believe that the Locke/Boone relationship is analogous to Abraham and Isaac, though I do hear echoes. What I believe is that Locke has decided to use his faith to justify what happened to Boone.

This sort of justification is arguably a salve to emotional pain. But it's also a gateway to sin. Human sacrifice is not something a 'good' God should ever demand.

- Blowing up Artz = bliss.

Paik's Man: "You are not free."

We learn that Jin was also planning on running away, ironic given that his wife was plotting the same thing without him. Now that I know the full story behind Paik's watch it makes ZERO sense for Jin to have beat Michael up over it. What does make sense: Jin was jealous of the obvious attraction between Michael and his wife.

-For all that Hurley might typify the concept of PU, he's got a lot of Eeyore in him.

-We learn that, at some point during Claire's disappearance, she scratched Rousseau in the jungle. I have no recollection on this at all, but I assume Rousseau was helping her to escape?

- Charlie, beat up by a junkie groupie = pathetic

- The Last Temptation of Chuck: a plane full of heroin revealed to him. It's no surprise to learn that he's kept one of the statues. At this point in the series it does look as though some force/someone is actively taunting/tempting Charlie.

Sun: "Do you think we're being punished?"

Shannon: "Punished for what?"

Sun: "Things we did before. The secrets we kept. The lies we told."

Shannon: "Who do you think is punishing us?"

Sun: "Fate."

Claire: "No one's punishing us. No such thing as fate."

- The Hurley Bird makes its first appearance in the Dark Territory. It's the only bird I've seen on the Island to date. The interpretation is up to you, but both times it calls out, its cries do sound an awful lot like Hurley's name. Note that the bird calls out, flies away, and is immediately followed by the first visible appearance of Smokey. Note also, that between Smokey's mechanical clanking, the same bird cries out again, and seems to call Hurley's name a second time. In both instances, the show's editors have chosen to feature Hurley on the screen directly before and after those calls. This seems deliberate, but I do not know what it means.

- Locke's confrontation with the Monster is markedly different than previously. It behaves as we see it behave in "This Place Is Death" - attempting to yank him down a hole into the underworld of the Island. Like Juliet at the Swan, Locke wants to be let go of, but Jack refuses and dynamite is used to free Locke from the Monster's grip. Is Smokey/the MiB attempting to 'convert' Locke as it converted Rousseau's team? What does this say/mean about the ultimate game plan of this entity?

Sun: "Aaron is a beautiful name. What does it mean?"

Claire: "I don't know what Aaron means."

I'll help you out, Claire:

1) In ancient egyptian, 'Herr' is 'to concieve.' 'Hrara' is 'conception.'
2) In Hebrew, 'Har' means 'from the mountain,' which may refer to the place of the Biblical Aaron's death.
3) In Arabic, 'Haroun' means 'high mountain.'
4) Unascribed to another language, it apparently also means 'one of light' and 'exalted.'

- As Hurley rides his scooter through the airport, the numbers on a soccer team's jerseys spell out 4 8 15 16 23 42.

Locke: "We shouldn't be this close to each other, Jack."

Jack: "If we blow up, we blow up."

Nice metacommentary, Lost.

- We see the Numbers have been etched on the Hatch and we've now seen that etching take place, four seasons later.

- Tom Friendly makes his first appearance as the Others finally show their non-Ethan faces. This is a deeply creepy moment in the show's history. God knows that the first time I saw this sequence the banjo line from Deliverance snaked through my mind.

-The final shot of the first season: Locke, Kate and Jack staring down into the Hatch as the camera pulls further and further away, making clear just how deep this particular rabbit hole goes. Much like the Harry Potter books, future generations will have no real understanding of what it was like to have to wait and gnash teeth over the lack of any resolution. They'll just shrug and pop in Season 2. When they do, I'll pop my dentures in and lecture them on 'the way things used to be,' when 50 cents would get you all the penny candy and moon pies a boy could want.

On to Season Two!

[gobblox]

Ahh... the legendary Exodus I and II. I remember thinking that at the end of exodus I, with the way the music swells as the raft departs, I always felt that it could have easily wiped into the Star Wars end credits music and probably fit perfectly!

In Exodus II, I was genuinely creeped out watching the final moments on the raft. I remember watching it alone in an empty house in the complete dark, and the part where they turn on the radar and all you have is the beeping sound which goes away, and then comes back I got chills. And then, "WE'RE GONNA HAVE TO TAKE THE BOY." FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU-----

And then all hell breaks loose and we're left with WAAAAAALLLLLLLT!!!!!

Sometimes I do think that this scene would have worked better as the end to the season rather than Jack and Locke peering down the hatch.

But then, it might not have flowed as nicely into the amazing first scene of Season 2...

[hellresident]

One of the things I remember about that raft scene (besides the fact that it really was one of the creepiest scenes ever done in the show's history) was the way Sawyer spoke about Walt earlier in the episode and how much of a pain-in-the-ass he was and how he'd put his hand to him for all the trouble he's caused. And yet the second you hear the words, "We're going to have to take the boy" leave Mr. Friendly's mouth, you can see his demeanor change and how he is ready and willing to fuck each and every one of The Others up to come to Walt's defense.

Unfortunately, they were able to get the jump on him thanks to a bullet to the shoulder, but Sawyer more than made up for it by the time Season 3 came to a close.

[Tomas Mejor]

Originally Posted by Ryan Bean

Honestly I think the only valid criticism of that sort is bringing up the (apparently) FUCKING MASSIVE importance of Walt and Aaron in Seasons 1 & 2

The writers never gave us anything more than ideas with characters well-written in-between. I love that people are so up-in-arms about LOST. It makes it so much better in every way.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

Anyone know if, canonically, the Black Rock and the Temple are in fact close together?

Ben's map of where the Temple is located. It's hidden away in a mountain range to the north east side of the island. We also saw the mountain range when Ben flashed a mirror (from the box that Hurley ate the decades old crackers) at Richard to send the cavalry when Keamy's team was after him. According to Lostpedia, The Temple is "a day and a half away from the Barracks".

The Black Rock, on the other hand, is "located deep in the Island's jungle. The Monster appears to be highly active in this region; it attacked the survivors during their mission to retrieve dynamite from the Black Rock, nearly pulling Locke underground. Additionally, the blast door map states contains the phrase, "Primary nexus of Cerberus related activity", in close proximity to the Black Rock. Carlton Cuse and Damon Lindelof confirmed that "Cerberus" is an alias for the the Monster at Comic Con 2007's Lost panel."

Here's Russeau's map with labels for her notations. It gives a pretty good sense of what Danielle knew and didn't know about the island.

Here's a fan made map that suggests the Dark Territory is on the complete opposite side of the island from the Temple.

And just because, here's the very first map I ever saw posted on Lostpedia. It'll remain my favorite because of the label "WALT!!!" indicating where he was taken.

[Deanburger]

might be jumping ahead a bit, but upon my rewatch i notice hurley gets involved in a lot of ominous foreshadowing conversations.

Hurley: "i guess i'm out of the loop"

Jack: "there's no loop"

Hurley: "dude, there's a loop"


and....

Sayid: "the signal could be coming from anywhere"

Hurley: "...or anytime"

Sayid: (puzzled look)

Hurley: "just kidding"

[Nicholas]

Originally Posted by Diva

And just because, here's the very first map I ever saw posted on Lostpedia. It'll remain my favorite because of the label "WALT!!!" indicating where he was taken.

Holy crap! I had forgotten about this map but I remember looking over it so many times when it came out.

As always, fantastic job on the write-ups, Jesse. I'm especially looking forward to Season 2, since I remember liking it but others hating on it. Maybe it was because of such long breaks between each episode and I was so eager for a new episode. I'm curious as to how it holds up.

[Diva]

Just want to add, that if the maps are even remotely correct, it brings up some questions:

-- Danielle's ship wrecked very near the Barracks/Temple so I don't know how she and her team didn't run into any of the Others. Additionally, it makes no sense that they would be making numerous trips to the Black Rock, which is situated on the opposite side of the island.

-- However, if we look at the location of her second campsite, it makes total sense that she never ran into any Others as they weren't situated anywhere near her.

[Jesse Custer]

Thanks for the contributions and kind words. Chime in and let me know if I'm missing things, or if you have more to add.

It occurs to me that maybe I'm wrong about "God" not intervening at the Beechcraft, ala Abraham and Isaac.

There's a joke about an atheist and a believer in a bar. The atheist tells his friend that he doesn't believe in God because he was stuck in a blizzard once and prayed to God for help, but God didn't show up. "Well, you're alive," says his friend, "sounds like he answered your prayer." "Nah," says the atheist. "God didn't show up. Just some eskimos that showed me the way home."

The arguable intervention that occurs to Locke is far more dramatic than as Eskimo popping up (although, on an Island with polar bears I wouldn't have been surprised if one had). Locke's legs deaden slowly as he continues to pursue the Hatch and continues his obsession. They deaden almost entirely after he recieves his 'vision,' and insists to Boone that they go to the plane.

Some potential reasons for this. (1) Locke is somehow subconsciously sabotaging himself. (2) Jacob is weakening him.

That's a form of intervention either way, but most especially if it's Jacob's doing. And Locke, pointedly, ignores it.

Originally Posted by Diva

Just want to add, that if the maps are even remotely correct, it brings up some questions:

-- Danielle's ship wrecked very near the Barracks/Temple so I don't know how she and her team didn't run into any of the Others....However, if we look at the location of her second campsite, it makes total sense that she never ran into any Others as they weren't situated anywhere near her.

First, thanks for posting those maps, Diva. Interesting to see how the Island has evolved in terms of how it's presented this way.

Second, I think what you point out is essentially dealt with through Ben's warning to Rousseau in Season 5. "If you hear Whispers, run the other way." It's possible, and likely, that Rousseau consciously tried to avoid the Others after Alex was taken in order to protect herself and her baby from a percieved threat. If we factor in the second campsite it makes even more sense, since we can interpret this as moving further away from the Others.

Originally Posted by Diva

Additionally, it makes no sense that they would be making numerous trips to the Black Rock, which is situated on the opposite side of the island.

I know. It would make a lot more sense if the Black Rock were tied into her S5 flashback, but it isn't. All I can think is that Rousseau's crew maybe knew more about the ship than we're aware of post-Monsterizing. If they emerged from the Temple acting unchanged, they could have gone back and forth between their camp and the ship for 'Other' reasons before turning on Rousseau, but since that's not shown it's unclear if that was the intent, or if they muddled this part.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

Second, I think what you point out is essentially dealt with through Ben's warning to Rousseau in Season 5. "If you hear Whispers, run the other way."

Yeah, but by that point, Danielle had already been on the island for several months. It's hard for me to believe that prior to Danielle killing her crew, that they didn't run into any Others. Though, it is possible that once her team "changed" they were connected to the island/Smokey/Others enough to avoid areas where the Others may be.

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

If they emerged from the Temple acting unchanged

I'm not sure that they were at the Temple. As noted on the maps, the Temple is somewhere in the mountain range. Given that Jughead was buried in some underground lair and that Jacob was seemingly staying in another one, it seems reasonable to suspect there are many such places around the island.

[Jesse Custer]

Man of Science, Man of Faith (S2 ep. 1)

Desmond Hume: "Good luck, brother. See you in another life, yeah?"

Random thoughts:

- During Desmond's morning prep we get a quick look at a Dharma Swan Station symbol. We also get a glimpse at the labels on the 'medicine' Desmond is injecting. 4 8 15 16 23 42 is clearly marked on all of them.

If it weren't for Hurley's apparent good/bad luck, I'd suggest that The Numbers are the show's way of illustrating Apophenia - the tendency to see connections in random data - to 'mistake coincidence for fate' by assigning meaning to the arguably meaningless.

- Adam Rutherford dies when Jack makes the choice to save Sarah, his future fiance. Rutherford is Shannon's father.

- We get our first look at the "Quarantine" warning on the inside of the Hatch door.

My current theory for the Quarantine labels:

During the Purge, the Swan crew was not discovered. The gassing of the Island through the Tempest Station rendered the air toxic, and someone in the Swan discovered this either through communication with Dharma or through unfortunate direct experience. Because of this, and because of the threat posed by the Hostiles, Quarantine labels were put up. This is why the suits that Kelvin and Desmond use were originally needed.

Locke: "Why don't you want to go down there, Jack?"

I'm enjoying the idea that the descent into the Hatch is a metaphorical descent into the sub/unconscious. The allusion to Alice In Wonderland is right there, after all (and is further shaded in by The Looking Glass). Maybe that's just because I like the idea of my subconscious being piloted by a twitchy, wild-eyed Scotsman.

- Sarah's then-fiance is supposed to sound like a jackass when he starts asking about whether he'll have to help Sarah use the bathroom, or whether they'll be able to make love, and he does in fact sound like a jackass.

But I can't help thinking that these are the sorts of things that almost anyone would at least think, including good-hearted, loving people.

Jack: "That's false hope, Dad."

Christian: "Maybe. But it's still hope."

- I was wrong about the timing of the beam of light that Locke sees in S5. I'm fairly certain that it's this second beam, seen as Kate disappears down the hole here, that Locke spots from his hill.

- Shannon sees ghost-Walt in the jungle, and it's effectively spooky business. Good ol' Walt is dripping wet and speaking backward. Then he vanishes. Farsight, how does this sudden appearance fit with your 'Walt has glimpsed Le Future' theory?

I went ahead and checked to see if anyone had made sense of Walt's creepy-speak, and there are some conflicting views.

One site seems to think Walt is saying "Push the Button. Don't push the Button. Bad."

Another site has it as "Don't push the Button. Bad."

Anyone know if there's a definitive answer? And either way, what does this mean as far as Walt's concerned? We know that Mrs. Clugh says Walt can be in places he's not supposed to be - is that a literal comment? And why is he soaking wet (other than to be eerily incongruous with his surroundings)? Is this actually Walt? Is it Jacob/the MiB?

- The shot of Jack running up the stadium steps from far away is wonderfully disorienting at first. One of my favorite shots in the show so far.

- Jack's encounter with Desmond at the stadium points up the question of these people and their interconnectivity. Is this fate/the Island/Jacob/Widmore/something/someone pulling the strings and moving the pieces into place? We learn that Desmond is training for a race around the world, but not why.

- Speaking of Desmond, everyone already knows about the way the name is a subtle reference to philosopher David Hume. Two interesting facts about Hume worth knowing:

(1) He was an Economist.

(2) "Hume, along with Thomas Hobbes, is cited as a classical compatibilist about the notions of freedom and determinism. The thesis of compatibilism seeks to reconcile human freedom with the mechanist belief that human beings are part of a deterministic universe, whose happenings are governed by the laws of physics.

Hume defines the concepts of "necessity" and "liberty" as follows:

Necessity: "the uniformity, observable in the operations of nature; where similar objects are constantly conjoined together..."

Liberty: "a power of acting or not acting, according to the determinations of the will..."

Hume then argues that, according to these definitions, not only are the two compatible, but Liberty requires Necessity.

In other words once again: Science requires faith, determinism requires free will, fate requires coincidence.

- When Jack climbs down into the Hatch after Locke and Kate we see him pass a very familiar concrete wall, and we watch as the key to the Marshall's case floats up and slowly toward the wall. Decades earlier, Jack is standing just above where he is now, attempting to stop any of this from ever happening. If he and the others end up causing The Incident, then he's just unknowingly strolled by his own handiwork.

- The electrical box that Jack examines for a moment has a large 'W' stamped on it. I'd like this to be the first appearance of a Widmore product on the show, but I doubt that it is.

- Jack also stumbles onto the '108 Mural.' I remember scanning it for clues back when this episode first aired, but now, looking back, there's not really any information conveyed in the mural that's useful or interesting. The 'Eye M Sick' declaration hints that the infection Rousseau talks about could be real, but we've seen nothing in five seasons to support that. The number 108 is clearly the 108 minutes in the countdown between button pushes, and the number 42 could mean any number of things, or nothing at all.

[Blueboy4003]

42...The answer to the Ultimate question of Life, the Universe and Everything...of course...

[Trav McGee]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

- I was wrong about the timing of the beam of light that Locke sees in S5. I'm fairly certain that it's this second beam, seen as Kate disappears down the hole here, that Locke spots from his hill.

Actually, you were right the first time. The scene Sawyer saw of Claire birthin' the baby was during the same "flash" that they all in S5 saw the beam of light, and that beam of light, when Locke was pounding on the hatch, was the same night Aaron was born.

Another good write-up, Jesse. I'm regretting the schedule that's keeping me from deluging this thread, but probably everyone else should be grateful.

[Farsight]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

- Shannon sees ghost-Walt in the jungle, and it's effectively spooky business. Good ol' Walt is dripping wet and speaking backward. Then he vanishes. Farsight, how does this sudden appearance fit with your 'Walt has glimpsed Le Future' theory?

It's a separate question, as far as I can tell. Having already 'lived' or been told of past events seems to explain every instance of precognition we've seen in the show. But the manifestations are something else entirely.

I'll be going through the show a second time soon, with my secondary focus (the primary reason is to enjoy them again, of course) being to note how the remaining mysteries (Smokey, the manifestations, the voices) fit into my idea of where the show is going, or whether I need a new theory before next season.

As for ghost-Walt... I remember at the time believing that the manifestations were the subconcious work of the islanders themselves, manifesting what they desired. Jacob and Smokey battered that theory around like an Eko-rag-doll, but it may still have a place. Just because many of the manifestations were produced by two entities doesn't mean they all were. After all, Kate's horse and Hurley's bird appeared to be manifestations, but they would be rather insane ways for Jacob or MiB to express themselves.

If something about the island's energy allows for Jacob and MiB to form or rearrange matter out of thin air, it's possible that others could have that ability, whether they realize it or not. Walt's reverse-speaking image seems to be a very crude attempt at a manifestation, which makes me think it's genuinely him - again, an incongruously wet and unintelligible child doesn't seem to fit with Jacob or MiB's modus operandi.

I've already suggested that some future event (like severe exposure to the island's energy) could cause Jacob and Smokey to gain their powers. It would also take exposure to the island's energy in the future to cause Walt to experience Desmond-esque glimpses into his own lifetime (unless someone told Walt one hell of a bedtime story pre-island!). Perhaps these two incidents were similar (or the same exact incident).

Another nice thing about this theory: it would mean that Walt is coming back to the island, sooner or later.

[Jesse Custer]

Adrift (S2 ep. 2)

Never on land or by sea will you find
the marvelous road to the feast of the Hyperborea.
- Pindar, Greek Poet

Michael: “WAAAAAALLLLT! WAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLTT! They TOOK my SON!”

...it begins.

Random Thoughts:

-Michael’s lawyer is played by Saul Rubinek, otherwise known as W.W. Beauchamp of Unforgiven and Lee Donowitz of True Romance, among many other character roles.

-During the last episode we entered the Hatch from Jack’s POV. During this episode we enter it from Locke’s. Not only does this give the writers a chance to show off more of the Hatch, it literalizes the distinction between Jack and Locke in terms of how they have approached this mystery up ‘til now, and how they’ll approach it going forward. Both of their points of view on the Hatch will drive this season.

-Locke follows Peter Venkman’s advice and says yes when Desmond mistakes him for the [Strikethrough]poor unfortunate sucker[/Strikethrough] new recruit that’s meant to help him/replace him. Unfortunately, Locke isn’t up on his third-grade jokes, so Desmond’s question to him (“What did one snowman say to the other snowman?”) goes unanswered, and the jig is up.

Michael: “They TOOK my SON!”

-The Dharma Shark makes his first (and I believe, only) appearance under the raft that Michael and Sawyer are using. The infamous Dharma Shark logo is still a terrific easter egg, and the actual symbol on the shark isn’t one we’ve seen since. It looks most similar to The Arrow’s symbol, but it’s not the same.

- I'd like to smack Susan's lawyer directly in the face. She's like a smugly evil Cheri Oteri.

Great Sawyer Line (post-bullet removal): “You got a band-aid?”

-As of this episode they’ve been on the Island for 34 days (over the course of 26 episodes).

-A model of a ship that looks like the Black Rock is located in the room where Michael and Susan discuss their son’s fate.

-The Dharma Pantry is discovered!

-Interesting that Locke is held at literal gun point and made to enter the Numbers into the computer. He’ll be at figurative gun point until the end of the season.

-Apollo Bars make their first appearance here. Want some random-yet-intriguing-and-seemingly-relevant info on the history of Apollo? Okay!

1) Apollo was associated with medicine and healing, and was also seen as a god who could bring sickness and plague – a yin and yang-like combination.

2) Apollo, in one form/name or another, existed as far back as ancient Babylon.

3) Here’s where things get interesting: Apollo’s human mother, Leto, was forbidden from giving birth on ‘terra firma,’ and so found the floating Island of Delos and gave birth there. Delos was surrounded by swans and the island became sacred to Apollo.

4) Here’s where it gets more interesting: According to myth, Hera kidnapped the goddess of childbirth to prevent Apollo’s mother from going into labor. Is it coincidence that up until at least the 70s, giving birth didn’t equate to death, but that in the period up to and through Aaron’s birth it did?

5) Finally, it’s said that apollo rode on the back of a swan to the land of the Hyperboreans. Hyperborea supposedly contained an island as well – a mirror island to Delos, one might say:

Among the many designations of the Hyperborean center that came to be applied also to the Atlantic center was Thule, or “White Island”, or “Island of Splendor” (the Hindu Sveta-dvipa; the Hellenic Leuke island; the “original seed of the Arian race” or Ariyana Vaego in ancient Iran); and “Land of the Sun”, or “Land of Apollo”, that is, Avalon.

…the “Island” or “Land of the Living” (the term “living” here referring to the members of the original divine race), which is the land to which the well-known symbols of the Supreme Center of the world allude, was often confused with the “region of the dead” (the term “dead” here referring to the extinct race). Thus, for instance, according to a Celtic doctrine, mankind’s primordial ancestor was the god of the dead (Dispater) who dwells in a faraway region beyond the ocean, in those “faraway islands” whence, according to the Druids’ teachings, some of the prehistoric inhabitants of Gaul came directly

Interesting, right?

-Michael gives baby Walt a stuffed polar bear.

-Sawyer and Michael stay alive until morning, when they discover that they’ve drifted back to the Island. They agree that the ‘current’ must have brought them there, but as we’ll learn from Desmond, it’s hard to leave this Island, and this place has ways of getting you back.

-This episode ends with one of my favorite teases – Jin running out of the jungle with arms tied, barking out ‘Others’ as Sawyer and Michael look up and see a group of shadowy, menacing figures there like a Lord of the Flies fever dream.

[Schwartz]

Not a whole lot to add, except that is one of my favorite teasers any show has ever done.

[Feral Akodon]

Yes, a perfect teaser indeed. I also loved the two different ways Jack and Locke approached the hatch. I would love to have the entire series at hand. (Must check my library at University as soon as I have some time, late December!).

[Diva]

This was posted in the Season 6 thread, but some interesting info to help our discussion here:

*In response to a fan question, the producers said that the mysterious Jacob has never assumed the form of anyone else, such as Claire.

Note they didn't mention anything about MiB.

[Farsight]

Interesting... those jerks just capsized my theory!

[Jesse Custer]

Originally Posted by Diva

This was posted in the Season 6 thread, but some interesting info to help our discussion here:



Note they didn't mention anything about MiB.

Thanks for slapping this up, Diva!

So...

If Jacob's never appeared as anyone else, that means that Christian is (a) The MiB, (b) actually Christian, (c) the Monster, (d) another entity/the 'Island's avatar.

Evidence strongly suggests he's the MiB/Smokey now, especially given:

1. His creepy cabin appearances,

2. The fact that Ilyana has the cabin burned after its determined that Jacob hasn't been there in some time,

3. He guides Locke to turn the wheel after Ben and invokes 'sacrifice,'

4. He cooly dismisses Michael when the C4 goes off,

5, Almost leads Jack straight off a cliff,

6. He appears off-Island, and is immediately proceeded by a smoke alarm.

Of course, I'm clueless about the purpose of his appearance to Sun, except to note that once again the way he shows up is eerie and unsettling.



About 3:25 into that "Mysteries of the Universe: DI" video, the picture shorts out and what looks like Tron-era computer text is briefly visible, but I'm going to leave it up to the skillful, obsessive folks who attack all of Lost's ARGs to puzzle out what they say.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

- Locke's confrontation with the Monster is markedly different than previously. It behaves as we see it behave in "This Place Is Death" - attempting to yank him down a hole into the underworld of the Island. Like Juliet at the Swan, Locke wants to be let go of, but Jack refuses and dynamite is used to free Locke from the Monster's grip. Is Smokey/the MiB attempting to 'convert' Locke as it converted Rousseau's team? What does this say/mean about the ultimate game plan of this entity?

I think it's pretty simple. The monster and the man in black are one and the same. The monster scans Locke earlier in the season, Locke claims it was "beautiful" but the monster sees Locke's past, knows how easy it will be to manipulate him, and wants to take him, kill him and use him to set his plan in motion. He eventually succeeds, but not until Locke is dead and brought back to the island.

I like at comic con that they confirmed that Jacob has not taken anyone elses form previously. It fits with the good/bad nature of these entities. MiB doesn't have a problem manipulating people. Jacob is less direct, giving (at least the illusion) of choice. For example, even though he encourages Kate not to steal again...she still steals. He just suggests.

[Mattioli]

Originally Posted by Parker

I like at comic con that they confirmed that Jacob has not taken anyone elses form previously.

The "Lost" fanatic in me can't help but look at what's not being said in that statement. The statement is qualified by "previously". And they point to Claire as a specific example of a character Jacob hasn't mimicked. This suggests to me--and accords with a theory I'd posted in one of our various "Lost" threads--that Jacob will manifest as another character in Season 6 and that character will be, in fact, Claire. Just as MiB/Flagg took on the dead Locke's form and persona.

[Jesse Custer]

This statement:

Originally Posted by Parker

I think it's pretty simple.

is rendered sort of hilarious by this follow-up:

Originally Posted by Parker

The monster and the man in black are one and the same. The monster scans Locke earlier in the season, Locke claims it was "beautiful" but the monster sees Locke's past, knows how easy it will be to manipulate him, and wants to take him, kill him and use him to set his plan in motion. He eventually succeeds, but not until Locke is dead and brought back to the island.

Here's my question: If all Mr. MiB Smokey needed to do was kill and impersonate Locke, why didn't he attempt to do this at some point between the end of Season one and the mid-point of Season five?

Originally Posted by Parker

I like at comic con that they confirmed that Jacob has not taken anyone elses form previously. It fits with the good/bad nature of these entities. MiB doesn't have a problem manipulating people. Jacob is less direct, giving (at least the illusion) of choice. For example, even though he encourages Kate not to steal again...she still steals. He just suggests.

Here's something to ponder, though: Is Jacob 'good'?

From what we've seen of the MiB's (possible) behavior, we know that entity will take 'bad' actions (see: Killing Eko, killing/changing Rousseau's crew, influencing Ben to kill Jacob and Locke), but we don't know what the end goal is.

What if the end goal is to somehow prevent something that Jacob has done in the future (the future, relative to 'current' time), something which is far worse than the death of ten people?

What if Jacob's seeming-acceptance of both fate at large and his own fate at the knife of Ben Linus is an atonement of sorts for something he's already done/caused/witnessed, or something he knows is coming?

What do we actually know about Jacob? Assuming he is 'good' as opposed to 'sympathetic' strikes me as a potential mistake.

Originally Posted by Mattioli

The "Lost" fanatic in me can't help but look at what's not being said in that statement. The statement is qualified by "previously". And they point to Claire as a specific example of a character Jacob hasn't mimicked. This suggests to me--and accords with a theory I'd posted in one of our various "Lost" threads--that Jacob will manifest as another character in Season 6 and that character will be, in fact, Claire. Just as MiB/Flagg took on the dead Locke's form and persona.

If that's the case, then that makes a family 'trinity' of sorts - Christian as the Father, Jack as the Son, and Claire as the Holy Spirit.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

Here's something to ponder, though: Is Jacob 'good'?

From what we've seen of the MiB's (possible) behavior, we know that entity will take 'bad' actions (see: Killing Eko, killing/changing Rousseau's crew, influencing Ben to kill Jacob and Locke), but we don't know what the end goal is.

What if the end goal is to somehow prevent something that Jacob has done in the future (the future, relative to 'current' time), something which is far worse than the death of ten people?

What if Jacob's seeming-acceptance of both fate at large and his own fate at the knife of Ben Linus is an atonement of sorts for something he's already done/caused/witnessed, or something he knows is coming?

What do we actually know about Jacob? Assuming he is 'good' as opposed to 'sympathetic' strikes me as a potential mistake.

Good is the wrong word. I don't think its as easy as "good or bad" or "fate vs destiny." I think its "involvement vs no involvement," or even more specifically, emotional manipulation vs....I don't know, "you can go your own way."

One of the shows strongest subtexts is daddy issues. I think its interesting that the few characters that have somewhat "good" relationships with their fathers are the ones whose fathers aren't that actively involved with them (Hurley, Jin).

Ultimately, I don't buy that killing Jacob is part of the plan. I could be wrong, but I feel like its too late in the game for them to pull that big of a switcheroo on all of us. In a way, Jacob represents the hardest aspect of faith...because he requires you to believe in him but gives you little in return (hence his gold answer to Ben..."What about you?") He could have said something to save his ass in that situation. Either he didn't want to because 1) that's not how he rolls or 2) he knew Ben would kill him and that's what he wanted or 3) a combination of the three.

As far as the monster trying to grab Locke in season 1, perhaps this is all part of the long con? None of the other "Losties" were chosen by the monster, so this adds to Locke feeling unique and special...something that gets reinforced over and over again.

[Farsight]

Originally Posted by Jesse Custer

If Jacob's never appeared as anyone else, that means that Christian is (a) The MiB, (b) actually Christian, (c) the Monster, (d) another entity/the 'Island's avatar.

Evidence strongly suggests he's the MiB/Smokey now, especially given:

Since I'm stubborn, I'm not totally giving up my theory until I rewatch the show again. The REALLY stubborn part of me even makes me wonder if Cuse (or Lindelof) answered the same question we think he did. The guy asks something like, "Yes or no, has Jacob ever taken the form of anyone else, such as Claire?" Then they spend a few minutes doing a big hullabaloo about giving the guy a fake pigeon, then Cuse (or was it Lindelof?) says, "No." I'd prefer to have had that answer in a less confused context, as it makes me wonder if he was answering the exact question above or, "Was Jacob taking Claire's form in the cabin?" (ie Is Claire dead?), which was what the question was really emphasizing.

Yeah, I'm likely grasping, but it'll do until I come up with a more likely alternative... I'm not giving up my, 'Christian is not the MiB' theory until he stands in the center of the frame and dissolves into black smoke!