What’s the percentage of first weekend box office that goes to the theater, and how does that percentage change over time? What’s the cost of advertising a movie, and is that cost included in the budget number against which you’re judging the film’s box office? How much, exactly, is the bump that 3D films get? And how much do matinees or luxury experiences like Gold Star Cinema weigh on the weekend box office? What the fuck does the weekend box office even mean, exactly?
I’m not talking about my usual whining about box office – ie, who cares about numbers if the movies are good – but rather a much deeper, more existential question that nobody seems able to answer. There are some who like to reduce the movie business to just business, and they approach the box office from a very standard business model. They think that the box office numbers have some direct correlation with what happens in Hollywood, which just isn’t the case. If that was the case, there would be no Tron Legacy this Christmas. The original film didn’t just do poorly, it flat out tanked, and it isn’t like Tron has become some sort of endless Disney cash machine. The same goes for GI Joe: Rise of the Cobra; looking at the domestic take for that film it’s baffling that a sequel would be greenlit, and yet there’s a script in development.
And look at it from the other point of view – the correlation between box office success and the movie business isn’t as cut and dried as we all like to believe. Titanic‘s big impact was probably allowing movies to be longer, which isn’t exactly the kind of massive footprint you’d expect from the biggest movie of all time. And what’s been the fallout from Avatar? Where’s that slew of hard scifi movies we all thought would come from the movie? They’re not making it out of development hell, near as I can tell. The biggest impact I can see from Avatar is that Warner Bros allowed Green Lantern to get fairly cosmic, changing a pretty down to Earth script into something more interesting.
Of course Hollywood is a big old boat, so turning it takes time; maybe we’ll really see the impact of Avatar next year. But I suspect that the lessons Hollywood learns from the box office aren’t the ones that we think they learn, and that’s just another way that we, the spectators, simply don’t understand the box office.
So we have a method of measuring the success of movies that’s seemingly arbitrary – I bet that the cost of going to the movies fluctuates 5 bucks depending on where you live – that is impossible to track over time – inflation and rising ticket prices make any comparison of this year’s box office to the box office of a decade ago hopeless – and that is now being fattened up with false padding – I understand that Toy Story 3‘s huge haul is impressive… but if Shrek 2 had the 3D bump it would still have outgrossed the latest Pixar. It’s a dumb method, a flawed method, and one that doesn’t actually tell us much of anything about the performance of a movie.
The Europeans do it better. The standard for measuring European box office remains what it once was in the United States – admissions. They count how many tickets are sold to a movie, which is a number that isn’t prey to the whims of local pricing, 3D bumps or inflation. I know that as Americans we’re obsessed with dollar signs, but those dollars we fixate on at the box office serve only to obfuscate the reality of movie performance. When you hear that European cinema grossed 6.27 billion Euros in 2009, that feels like a big number but an abstract one. When I then tell you that there were 981 million tickets sold, that feels pretty damn big too, but like something around which I can wrap my mind. I get what that means.
I’ll never believe that there’s any point in getting hung up on the box office; Hollywood business is alchemy and magic, and as much of it is about appearances as it is about cold hard numbers. Superman Returns got to 200 million dollars, but that’s a number that Warner Bros got by the sweat of their balls, not by actual humans being interested in the movie. But we’ll always look back at that number as meaning something, even though it doesn’t. I don’t know that the admissions numbers for Superman Returns tells us a more honest story about the movie’s reception, but it feels more solid.
We don’t talk about how much money a book has made, or how many dollars a record has earned. We talk about units shifted, and with good reason, because units shifted is the most concrete way to understand popularity. Let an accountant worry about gross versus net; if we’re going to be (ill-advisedly) interested in the box office at all, it should be an interest in numbers that matter, that say something and that have a real weight. The weight of asses in seats.
Thanks to Colin Geddes for sparking the idea for this Advocate.
36 comments
Devin, can you do a follow-up-vocate in the near future regarding the admissions numbers in America? I only saw a reference to a number of people going to European movies, thought you might include at least the number of people who went to see Superman Returns. I think it'd be interesting to see just how many people go to the movies in America each year, at least in the last decade or so, with some solid references. Thanks!
Can't say yay to the European way, either, since someone can buy a ticket to one movie and go to another.
I agree that tickets sold should be the way to calculate the interest in movies. But there is one small problem compared to how many books or record have sold. It's the fact that people won't buy many times the same record or book usually. But, they might go see a movie many times. Also, a book or record might be shared by many people. Not a movie. Only one person go see it with one buy. I don't know, I still agree that counting entries would be the right thing to do but, there might be a reason why they don't do it.
Are you guys gonna start doing this?
I never thought about that before this article, but that just makes perfect sense.
Going with the gross creates the illusion that movies are more popular (not to mention "profitable" – no Hollywood movie ever really makes money) than ever. Not true. Peter Bracke, in his seminal Camp Crystal Lake Memories, continually compared the box office numbers with actual ticker sales. The first Friday the 13th movie is still the champ in that regard. More people bought tickets to that film than any other in the series, including FvJ.
You're welcome, Devin.
And if you jump screens in the American system, the dollars go up for the wrong movie. Factor the jumps in both systems, the number of tickets sold is still a better indicator of audience receptivity.
And here's your "Scott Pilgram is a box office flop" whine. Not disguised well at all I might add! LOL
the more you read this site the more you understand propergander or something. fart noise,
As far as counting admissions goes, it's interesting, but there's no real way to determine unique sales. There's no way to determine how repeat business plays into things really, or (while we're also on the subject of popularity) even if a movie is really playing well to everyone, like if half an audience is comprised of people that just go to certain movies for no other reason than they're new that week or something. Determining ONLY the number of admissions is the closest thing to figuring out a real head count that we can get, but it's still just a single part of the puzzle when trying to figure out how much and what kind of business a film is doing or not doing.
stunned by the soonest after one of your fav movies bombed. we just get wrong sometimes mate. keep dick in tin.
#2: I would think that's pretty rare, and if not the dollar-based box office numbers would be skewed to the same extent.
And slightly off topic but still relevant, you can't really compare how many admissions a modern movie got to say something like Gone With The Wind, because movies back then had far less competition so where able to stay in theatres for a year, compared to the 6-8 weeks that they do now.
Do they circulate the ticket sales numbers? If so then a popular movie websight such as, I don't know, Chud (or if not you then maybe that Alex Billington guy you guys like could do it) started showing those rankings every week without even including the box office. It would be a cool way to make the point, like defiantly using the metric system in the U.S.
Well sir, that sounds like a splendid idea. Are the statistics available for number of tickets sold? If they are, it is only fitting that CHUD takes responsibility and includes them in the B.O wrap-ups. It is a logic step, and putting those numbers next to the $, would perhaps provide some nuance for your readers?
Is Devin quitting the Chud?
And none of this changes the fact that Scott Pilgrim was a huge disaster. Awesome.
"Can't say yay to the European way, either, since someone can buy a ticket to one movie and go to another."
Where the **** do you get this? Take it from someone who does live in Europe and has lived in Italy, Denmark and Croatia: You stand in a line, when its finally your turn, you say which movie you want to watch, at which available hour and you get your ticket, with the name of the movie, which "sal" it is and when it starts.
Seriously what the **** is it with these posters who post anything that their blabbering vagina comes up with?
@#17 Scott Pilgrim is in no way a disaster. It will still end up being Wright's highest grossing film in the USA and might very well go on to do so internationally. Just because they nosed dived this week doesn't mean it isn't successful. 2nd Attempt.
A great idea, except there`s absolutely no reliable means to track actual ticket sales. Those numbers simply do not exist in North America. Ridiculous, I know, but true. Exhibitors don`t keep tallies like that.
@#18
Blabbering vagina … comedy gold.
Man Dev, anything to save face. This article is sort of comes off as an indirect 'apologist' article for Scott Pilgrim! Face it, this site and AICN probably contributed to that film's financial downfall.
DVD and download sales should be a good gauge of how popular a movie is. HDTVs and home theater is becoming more commonplace, and if someone really liked a movie they will buy it. Of course, I know some people who buy any shit that comes out on DVD just so they can have a huge library that impresses nobody, but still. Because even with high ticket sales, what percentage of theatergoers walk out with a verdict of "that sucked" or "that was okay"? And you can't compare 3D animated films; they are a different animal. Everyone takes their kids to every one of those just to shut them the fuck up for 90 minutes. Bad comparison.
Excellent insight once again. Thanks so much for your perspective! I love writing that challenges assumptions.
#2 "Can't say yay to the European way, either, since someone can buy a ticket to one movie and go to another."
That doesn't really work here. Atleast not in sweden, cuz we buy tickets for a specific seat in a specific row for a specific movie. And you usually stand in line outside the specific "room" your seeing it in, so it would be kinda impossible to try to sneak in to another movie. A- you would steal somebody elses seat, B- The guys who work at the cinema wouldn't let you in to that specific room without the correct ticket.
Wow, so utterly clueless.
Avatar's big fall out? Maybe you've noticed a couple of 3D projects in the works lately?
What does the box office MEAN? It's how much money a fucking film earned. That's it. There's nothing else to it.
"We don't talk about how much money a book has made, or how many dollars a record has earned. We talk about units shifted, and with good reason, because units shifted is the most concrete way to understand popularity."
This was actually the same method by which "the industry" determined that 50 Cent was a more popular entertainer than The Beatles. That methodology is just as flawed, as unites shifted isn't based on how many copies consumers purchase, but rather how many units are shipped to stores.
I don't know why you guys are so hung up on the theatrical financial failings of movies you like. Just because Scott Pilgrim flopped doesn't mean you can't like it. It just means that when you produce a film that only has the chance to earn as much as the most popular Kevin Smith film (not including Cop Out), you don't make it for 60 million dollars.
Tell this to David Poland!
Someone said that up the page, I think, and it's a great idea. Let CHUD be the one to blaze this trail. It probaby doesn't sound like much fun for folks who just want to talk about and love movies, but dammit someone needs to cut through the BS.
"And what's been the fallout from Avatar? […] The biggest impact I can see from Avatar is that Warner Bros allowed Green Lantern to get fairly cosmic" Uhm, how about every other "big" movie being 3D now?
Wouldn't ($$$ / Ticket ###) give an average price for ticket?
It would be interesting to see if specific movies leaned more towards smaller cheap theatres, big expensive screenings with 3D showings.
More numbers = more detail = I'm more interested.
The biggest impact from Avatar are the scores of movies either sci-fi or containing sci-fi elements getting made. Alfonso Cuaron's "Gravity", Doug Liman's "All You Need is Kill", Joseph Kosinski's "Oblivion", David Fincher's "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea", Jon Favreau's "Cowboys and Aliens", Strause brothers' "Skyline", Liebesmans' "Battle: Los Angeles" etc. etc. the list goes on. Those were just the ones off the top of my head. There are a (welcomed) RETARDED amount of sci-fi flicks on the way. I agree judging box office by just money is a lacking measurement. And it's a shame Scott Pilgrim, such a brilliant flick, didn't do better. With Avatar and then Inception, there is no fallout. From sci-fi or 3D. BTW, this is try number 9 to verify the letters correctly. Sad.
The only real way you can compare the success of a film is in direct relation to its budget.
You can't go by dollars earned because of inflation, 3D tickets, IMAX tickets, the percentage Hollywood claims in box office sales, etc.
You can't go by ticket sales because lots of people see a movie more than once. How many times did you see Inception? Two? Three? How many times did people see Avatar? Two? Three? Ten?
Another factor people have mentioned is how long a film stays in theatres, namely Gone With the Wind.
Movies can only accurately be viewed based on their success. Not ticket sales, not box office rankings, but how much money the movie makes the studio. Inception is a huge success because it made back its ~200m dollar budget while still in theatres. G-Force was not a success because it was a costly animated movie that couldn't bring in a domestic profit.
So I like to look at movies based on how much profit they earned over their budget. Basterds cost 80m dollars to make and raked in 120m. That's a 50% return on your product.
Inception cost 160m and has brought in 262m. That's a 64% return on your product.
Toy Story 3 cost 200m to make. It's brought in 404m. That's over a 100$ return on your product.
That is how you measure success.
money confuses devin. he would rather count asses. he "gets" those.
@#16: Devin didn't quite CHUD…CHUD quit him.
Great article Devin. It seems like when Superman Returns and Ang Lee's Hulk movie came out, both studios seemed to wish that their respective movies had made at least double what they ended up making ($400 million at least, a magic number that Transformers 2 actually reached shockingly enough, and I say that being a fan of the movie. I'll admit, it was not the best movie of that summer and I was also shocked by the twins but I dug the action so much). For Superman Returns, it was because Warner Bros. had paid all of that money over the decade or more since the last movie just to develop a new one (Tim Burton and Nicolas Cage signed pay or play deals meaning they got payed even if a movie did not get made!) and Universal seemed to think that Ang Lee's Hulk movie should have made more simply because the character was better known than most other Marvel characters (only rivaled by Spider-Man's notoriety, even Iron Man was not that well known by the masses back then). And now such strange financial expectations have appeared again it seems with the Platinum Dunes slasher remakes. Friday the 13th hit a worldwide gross of $90 million and yet immediate plans for a sequel were scuttled. On the other hand, it seems that the Elm Street remake was an utter failure and yet Jackie Haley and Rooney Mara have been signed for a sequel (or a potential sequel that is). If any of this is stuff you already know, my apologies. And of course as always you have the adjusted list of the highest grossing movies ever where Gone with the Wind and most others in the top 20 will continue to reign seemingly forever more.
Yep, I've been saying the same shit for years. $$$ figures are a half-assed way to judge a film's true performance and popularity against others. Units shifted would be a far, FAR superior method of comparison.
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