STEVE JOBS HAS PASSED AWAY - Page 3

Not true.

 

 

... awaits knee jerk reactions

Tzu

I value Jobs for refusing to compromise, not for qualities like "civility" or "kindness". I have no doubts that those who drew his wrath were fully deserving of his ire, if for no other reason than they stood in his way. And besides, who among us wouldn't walk away bettered for having endured a course correction at the hands of such a great man?

A human is "nice"

A Titan sees the world as it should be, and won't give a single inch till they have - through sheer force of will - bent reality and the very arc of history to realize their vision

That is really as simply as I am able to state things. I've long heard the weak whine of the supposed "meanness" of Steve Jobs, and I couldn't be less interested. Never apologize, never compromise. Anything less is a betrayal of self, of what some may call Jobs' "sacred selfishness"


“… to be able to give something one has to be something…
one must consist of gold and not of hunger.”
C.G.Jung
Edited by Princess Kate - 10/10/11 at 2:42am

well, Hitler got the trains running on time, created jobs for a lot of people, made Germans feel (for a while) good about themselves and also changed the World (since the rocket scientisist he employed top bomb fuck out of the UK were instrumental in the Space race as well as a lot of medical advances caused by his doctors sans ethics approach to medical science.

So by your Jobsian argument there was nothing wrong with him?

If you value people for their "refusal to compromise" then you must also be a fan of Stalin, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Chaucescu etc etc etc

 

Christ.  

 

You are a vile, disgusting excuse for a human being.

Guys... We are all entitled to our own opinions as long as we express them respectfully

Peace

EDIT Hat tip to Andy Bain for comparing Steve Jobs being curt to Adolf Hitler gassing millions. Impeccable logic, that

Wow, first Peter Laird posts on CHUD and now we've got Ayn Rand in the house. Woot!

 

So having a vision and "refusing to compromise" is a bad thing?   Comparing Steve Jobs to some crazed dictators is just in poor taste.

 

I wasn't comparing Jobs to a dictator in the slightest.  All I was pointing out was that if ALL you value in someone is their ability to get things done, no matter what, then it's no small step to see it in dictators.

 

I seriously don't even know how you could read that I was comparing Jobs to these guys.

 

Allow me to quote another section from her post to reiterate:

 

"A Titan sees the world as it should be, and won't give a single inch till they have - through sheer force of will - bent reality and the very arc of history to realize their vision".  

 

That can easiily be applied to all those dictators.  My analogy was a way to show up the nonsense response to what I thought was actually a balanced article, rather than Jobs bashing.

 

Apologies if it wasn't clear enough and caused a misunderstanding that offended.

 

 

You'd think Apple would do something to mark this. Like having a 50% off "Mourning Day" sale or something.

 

Then I remember this is Apple where THINK DIFFERENT means CAN'T AFFORD IT? FUCK OFF.

 

 

Isn't it the policy of literally every company ever that if you can't afford their products, you cannot buy them?

That is a truly bizarre complaint

For the record though, APPLE has always offered educational discounts for both students and educators, and often throws in back to school freebies like iPods. They've given away tens of millions of dollars in computers and iPads to public schools as well

And, if nothing else, the quality of APPLE products force the rest of the industry to raise it's game. Look at smartphones pre iPhone and post iPhone, and tell me you begrudge APPLE's influence on the marketplace

You go a long way to proving my long held hypothesis though, which is that most of Apple's detractors are simply sore about being priced out of the revolution

EDIT And Andy Bain: I'd hope it would be self evident that I appreciate Jobs' dedication to his vision because *I believe in his vision*. I don't support Hitler simply because he was super efficient at enacting his murderous plot... I'm not sure how you could ever make that assumption

"Priced out of the revolution"? Really?

 

I'm not hating on Jobs. I understand the influence he had and will have. I used to own an iPod and when it died a week after the year warranty expired, I was happy to go buy a new one. I walked out of the store with a 120 gig Zune instead, because it was a $100 cheaper, and it held 90 gig more music than the iPod. You know what? The Zune is still alive and very much kicking 3 years later.

I had a 2500$ G4 Titanium PowerBook die a month after the one year warranty expired, and I hold no ill will towards Apple for that. For the 13 months it worked, it was the best computer I ever owned. I feel lucky to have had as much time with it as I did, and as soon as I can afford another computer, I'll be getting an iMac (and will stick with my iPad for portable computing)

really?  Fuck, get that to the museum as one of the few lasting examples!  I went through 4 in 6 months (I was working for M$ at a technet event and my bag got pinched that had my Sony player in it and they gave me a Zune as a replacement, and then another and then another and then another until I just though "fuck it" and got a replacement Sony instead).

 

I now have an iPhone through my work.  However when I get my new job I'll be changing that for a Galaxy S2. The revolution is not one company only.

 

It didn't offended me in the slightest, I just misunderstood what you where getting at. I know it can be easily applied to all those dictators.  In a way, I can see Jobs as a dictator with his products and polices.

 

Kate is right in one respect, It takes a certain ruthlessness to become a big name in the computing world. I don't begrudge him that in the slightest.

 

And I love my white iPod 4 so I would be a hypocrite if I dissed his products.

 

But calling him a visionary is a bit of a stretch. What he actually did was take other peoples ideas and make them pretty, shiny and more marketable. 

On Bad Devin had a great response to someone saying Jobs would rather "build a better fishing pole than just give someone a fish", and it sums up my unease with the canonisation of the man:

 

 

 

I don't understand this criticism at all. Would Devin rather Jobs spent his life making cheap 100 net books or something? Jobs had a calling, and it was to create a device that was magical, revolutionary, and wonderful for your hand. Devin seems to be saying Jobs should have dedicated his efforts to entirely different career goals, which is just strange. Its like saying Martin Luther King was myopic because he only wanted to improve the lives of blacks in first world America, rather than spend all his time fighting hunger in Africa

And as previously established in this thread, APPLE has had positive effects world wide, not just for people who can afford 500$ iPads (just ask Cylon Baby about Mr Juma)

EDIT: and as I mentioned, APPLE has great educational partnerships with school systems across the country and around the globe. I had a computer lab in 5th and 6th grade that was all iMacs. It didn't cost me a cent, any child rich or poor was able to benefit from Jobs' technological benevolence. I seek a future where everyone has equal and easy access to APPLE technology, and I have no doubts it was this same vision that drove Mr Jobs to perform his feats

I think Devin's saying that lionising a man whose "revolutionary products" were strictly priced and marketed for the haves rather than the have-nots isn't a particularly worthwhile endeavour.

 

Also the fact that apparently the man never gave a penny to charity in his life is kind of souring, but don't let me rain on your parade.

This thread has invoked Edison, Einstein, Hitler and MLK Jr??? Cripes. Perspective people. And I love Pixar. But I love their creative decisions and the output. The stories, the characters, etc. The artists and the art. Walt Disney, Jim Henson... those deaths (or consequences)  were felt by me. I'm thankful that Jobs had the foresight to invest there, but beyond that? If I could afford an iphone, I'm sure I'd appreciate it for what it is. But an app will never give me as much joy as a felt, foam, and fur puppet on the end of Henson's arm has. Maybe I'm getting old. Analog guy in a digital world and all. Tech helps us to be sure, but it's a vehicle/tool/format. Not a religion. If you're emotionally attached to the white 4G touchpad thing in your pocket, you need a reassessment.

Is that true? If so then that makes him amazing in a whole different way.

 

 

well then SAY that rather than banging on about how "a human is nice, a titan is someone who tramples over everyone to change history"

 

Listen - I'm not Jobs bashing, really I'm not.  I just like balance.  Admire the man for his achievements but accept that he's not perfect, that's all I'm saying.  If a film was to be made of his life it would be that much more interesting if it covered all aspects of his life the genius AND the arsehole rather than focusing solely on one or the other.

 

It's nothing new that authoritarian personalities go farthest in business, Baldwin's character in Glengarry Glenross is a perfect example of that, but while I can admire that business ethic I struggle with the human side of it.  In all things there should be balance.  And that's why I have an issue with blanket "he was awesome".  Parts of his life were amazing, other parts (the parts that I personally hold in high esteem) less so.

 

Just my opinion of course

 

 

I was thinking about Kate and her absurd worship of Jobs and trying to see it from her perspective, and it occurred to me that perhaps one of us would be equally torn-up if someone like Scorsese or Spielberg kicked the bucket. So are we hypocrites? I would say no -- Spielberg and Scorsese, or any filmmaker, deal in emotions. It's their job to foster them in people, and our emotional attachment to these distant and unknowable figures is in some way validated by the fact that we have come into such intimate connection with their ideas and in many ways felt something through their attempts to articulate their feeling of something. That connection is inherently a personal thing.

 

And sure, maybe the aspect of personal connection is somewhat contrived and commercialized and fabricated and marginalized in movies as opposed to, say, literature for example. But it's still there, whereas there is nothing personal about any computing device, ever, and anybody who has convinced themselves otherwise has drunk some serious Kool-Aid.

Edited by JMulder - 10/10/11 at 6:36pm

These are some thoughts I jotted down tonight on Mr Jobs in response to some stuff that had been posted here. No need to read it if you don't want to, I am just trying to put my perspective out there as best as I am able to. Until and unless there is some sort of Jobs/APPLE related news to talk about, something new to say, let this serve as my final eulogy to Steve Jobs

---

Steve Jobs is a figure that many people cannot yet begin to understand. This does not surprise me, as he and APPLE have long been shrouded in rumor, slander and mystery. Frankly, I am just deeply grateful to see the outpouring of support and the recognition of his awesome legacy that has unveiled itself over these past days. My loyalties to APPLE as a company and a philosophy date back to my earliest memories of life on this planet, and I feel - I know - Jobs was deserving of nothing less than this hero's death. Like the Titans of myth, that Jobs was driven by some greater pothos, something beyond  normal human experience, was, in the end,  evident to all. From global leaders to the every day peoples that populate this small blue world we call home, human beings everywhere took notice when he left this plane of existence. Countless millions could not help but feel the loss our species took that day,  and in the end, though his death, APPLE finally got it's due

The future is now brighter than ever, and APPLE stands poised to establish a legacy of unassailable market dominance that will endure for ages to come. APPLE now gets to set the terms of our future, if only they reach out and seize this moment

But whenever history is marked by a change as profound as the revolution in thought Jobs ushered forth, the upheaval in understanding required by this total reinvention of consciousness  inevitably results in confusion, fear and misunderstanding

That confusion is what I seek to clear up with this post

First, you must understand that Jobs was not a salesman. He was not a marketer. He was as much a salesman as Karl Marx "sold" philosophy or Susan B Anthony "sold" the concept of equal voting rights under law. Jobs was a man with a singular vision, a vision for how the human experience could through technological upheaval be shaped for the better of all, that beyond concerns for food, water and shelter, the hunger in each of us for greater understanding of the universe and ourselves is above all else the drive that makes us human. He knew that if only we had the right device, the right tool, to cast down the forces of ignorance and dogma that have held us back  for the entirety  of  history - might, at long last - be possible.


  With the right tool, an individual could free the people's of the world and empower them to seek their own destiny. To quote Steve, it was about nothing less than "throwing off dead culture. Dead gods"

He knew that information was the key.. and computers would be the primary information tool of the coming age

To quote Jobs character from POSV:

"I figured it out, man. I know what it's all about. It's about power. It's like those countries where the army guys overthrow the government, The first thing they do is take over the ways people communicate: radio, television, newspaper. Information is power"

Jobs stood alone at that moment in history, and saw that it fell to him to take up the mantel of Prometheus, to irrevocably free the people by forever turning over control of information to  the masses 

To achieve that though, to make the most of your every moment in pursuit of a singular goal.. It's a mission few have it in them to see to it's conclusion. For Jobs to take that first step forward, to look at what is and see it as it could be, to think different, it was a given that there would be some people who were simply incapable of taking the mental leap required to see things as he did, to see that the path he'd set us on was true

Some of these doubters were external: Gates, and his ilk. Others though would inevitably arise from within

And that is why I am only too pleased to read anecdotes where Jobs thunders through any obstacle set in his way. Jon Stewart said the other night that with men like Tesla and Einstein, it felt like they'd died old men, like humanity had collectively wrung all it could from them, every last drop of their unique genius

And yet with Jobs, Stewart says it was a moment of shock, "wait wait, don't go! We're not done with you yet!"

We all only get so many days to be alive before our time is over. So many sunrises before you never wake to see the next morning

Jobs died young. Far too young. Without this illness, one could have reasonably expected him to live another hundred years with the expected continued advances in medicine and the financial resources at his disposal. With all likelihood he would have seen the technological singularity and become one of the first post humans

Throughout history there have been those special people who in their time so greatly shaped what came after, that we can't help but wonder what world we'd now find before us had they lived even a few years more. With the leading figures of society (the President of the United States ETC) saying without equivocation that Jobs is a figure equal to Einstein, that he is unique in modern times, it therefore logically follows that Jobs is equal to those traditionally considered peers of Einstein: Newton, Galileo, and  Aristotle 

Look... Jobs was already forced out of APPLE once. Small minded fools, entranced by their own delusions and dogma, turned against Jobs in a villainous coup of profoundly self destructive maddness. Jobs was lost to the world for 12 years, his light virtually snuffed out, while men like Scully were allowed to send Apple into a spiral of doom 

Jobs, and the mission of his life, could in that betrayal have been ended

Look at this excerpt from Scully's 1987 autobiography. Contained in it are the thoughts of someone who in their wiring was simply incapable of seeing the future. In this quote I believe that it is perfectly clear these were not colleagues that stood against Jobs - they were enemies




 Assuming for the moment that Scully was simply  stupid,  and not a calculating thug driven by anti-revolutionary schemes, the fact remains that Scully and the other doubters cost Apple the most precious thing of all - time. Every second of inane argument, every moment Jobs was forced to justify himself, was a second lost, a second Jobs and Apple would never get back 

Jobs did astounding, groundbreaking work at NeXT. The first Internet server was a NeXT, and so Jobs can rightly be called one of the founders of the web. Some of the work at NeXT went on to inspire OS X

With that said though, the 12 lost years, the dark years, to me stand as clear evidence that whatever steps Jobs deemed necessary in the crushing of doubt and dissent within the company during his time at Apple from it's founding to his second coming were, unquestionably, correct

If that was shouting, yelling and anger: so be it. If there was someone at  APPLE who didn't get it, a nonbeliever who somehow snuck through, someone who (as we read in Tzu's excellent article)  simply had the timidity to question Jobs that sometimes it really can be all about white and then years later be all about black  - without either position ever having been wrong - well  to hell with them, and god bless you Steve for not cutting them an inch of slack. They were drag on the ship, when it most needed wind in it's sails

With the Christian Dark Ages scientific progress in the western world ground to a halt for a thousand years. On that note, I can't help but wonder if we'd all be hotly anticipating the 2012 release of iPhone X had Scully stuck with the sugar water* and kept his poisonous thinking far away from APPLE

And so, Tzu ETC, I am not a bad person for believing in Jobs and the conduct he deemed necessary for bringing about his dream. At certain inflection points in history, there are simply more important things at stake than manners



*Scully worked at Pepsi, and when inviting him to Apple Jobs famously asked "do you want to sell sugar water all your life, or do you want to make a dent in the universe?"

PS I have prepared this response to the accusations of miserly behavior from Jobs

STEVE JOBS: MAN OF CHARITY, FATHER OF THE FUTURE

Bono, one of the world's most prolific figures in the field of charity and giving, stands in firm support of Jobs and his philanthropy 




The (RED) iPod was a unique event on the tech landscape, and anyone who seeks to minimize it does so at their own peril



 Through educational grants and partnerships with public schools, Jobs brought a brighter future to millions of school children around the world, and across the country


 
In the wake of tragedy, APPLE frequently uses the astounding power of it's media platform to bring attention to worthy causes. Check out this  TSUNAMI front page ad in the iTunes store. It ran for weeks:





Sent from my iPad
Edited by Princess Kate - 10/10/11 at 11:06pm

Ditto.

You're thinking about this too much. 

 

Some people don't think he's that great. You do. You won't convince people otherwise. 

Correct, and using words like "nonbelievers" doesn't help your case either, PK. Just a bit of advice: sometimes it doesn't matter how right you are if you sound like a fanatic while stating it.

 

OK, here's another article in the interest of balance.  This article starts with:

 

"Steve Jobs was a remarkable and fascinating businessman, and by some distance the most interesting and accomplished personality operating in an important corner of the economy. He had a respect for the intelligence of human beings and their ambition, and potential – showing an optimism which is rare in a cynical industry. And Jobs left us far too early."

 

So it's most definately not a hack job.  It does however argue that the Dianafication of Jobs is not only wrong but also distasteful to the man's actual memory.  It goes on to say:

 

"Nobody could be more scathing about mindless technology worship than Steve Jobs. Myfavourite interview with him was by Gary Wolf, when Jobs was 39, and had realised the utopianism of his generation was shallow, empty and a giant diversion. The web would augment the world, not change it. Far more important, he stressed, was education."

 

would you like to know more?

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/10/07/steve_jobs_dianamania/

 

"Many truly life-changing breakthroughs by scientists go uncelebrated, and in courageous defiance of institutions and conventional wisdom. But “boffins” don’t get lachrymose send-offs from strangers. Jobs was a significant figure, but no Nikola Tesla.

The late Norman Borlaug prevented a billion deaths by applying the scientific method to the traditional scattergun approach to crop selection and breeding, creating the "green revolution". India used to have famines 40 years ago – now it exports grain. There are fewer conflicts in the world as a consequence. Women have more reproductive freedom. These are incredible achievements – and earned Borlaug the Nobel Peace Prize. But he received no such adulation, and even earned a few sneers in some obituaries.

What the Jobs hyperbole means is that your world is no bigger than your media. Or your computer. There can’t be a more tragic expression of the internet’s self-absorption."

Quote:

I'd be bummed for sure. And probably throw in on a mini movie marathon that evening or at least toss in my favorite dvd. But I still wouldn't build a shrine (whether in physical form or cyberspace) or attend a midnight vigil. Unless you consider my Muppet memorabilia collection a shrine. And if so, there's that deep emotional connection (through Henson's art and example) you mentioned. A connection that has gone on to inspire my own creative endeavors and career path (and maybe even my personal philosophies to a degree).

 

ETA: Upon reflection... If Jobs touched someone's life in an inspirational sort of way, good for them (seriously). Hopefully they then use that inspiration to fuel some actual good instead of just time-wasting over-zealous internet buffoonery (take note: this is NOT in reference to the article itself).

Saw this posted on someone's FB wall.  Pretty sure it hasn't been posted here.

 

You could just have easily have sent it from a BlackBerry or Netbook or a PC in a public library or countless other devices, but its your parents money so more power to them I guess.

So true Nooj. Gates the supposed anti christ is using his wealth to make a real difference in the world and activily encourages other big buisnessmen to do so. 

 

What a dick :)

Too soon?

 

How Steve Jobs gamed the system so he could jump the line to get his liver transplant, which he shouldn't be eligible for anyway.

 

http://digitaljournal.com/article/274846

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2011/01/how_did_steve_jobs_get_his_liver.html

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2009/07/27/prsa0727.htm

 

To make a long story short, there was a rule (that was changed after this came out) that in order to register at a transplant clinic you had to live less than four hours away. Of course Jobs, owning a jet, lived four hours away from everywhere. So he applied in every transplant clinic in the US and ended up getting a liver in Tennessee. A liver he wasn't eligible for anyway since patients with pancreatic cancer don't get transplants due to their extremely low chances of survival at that point. And all of that would have been avoided if he got a surgery immediately when his cancer was diagnosed, instead of spending NINE months trying to cure himself with a "special diet" he got from somewhere. 

 

How's that for enriching lives?

 

Edit: I forgot to add that in order to get in every list possible he ended up buying houses allover the US in order to get residency.

Edited by stelios - 10/12/11 at 1:25am

Sir Clive would have designed a cumbersome mechanical liver, powered by car battery, that you have to pedal every now and then to keep up and running.

 

Hang on, is that the plot of the new Crank movie?

Eh, I'm not a fan of the Jobs deification movement, but I can't say that I wouldn't do the same thing to survive cancer if I had the resources he did.

It wasn't about surviving cancer. A liver transplant does not cure pancreatic cancer. It was about extending his life a bit more.

 

Now it's has to be said, that you shouldn't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Faced with death maybe I'd also have said "Fuck these other guys, I want to live as much as possible." That wouldn't make the act any less douchebagy. 

I don't think anyone would, provided the means.

 

But it was still a selfish move.

 

It is just another example of Jobs being a complete dick.  He made his employees' lives Hell and pulled shit like using his money as a last ditch effort to save his life when his pseudo-hippie bullshit holistic treatments didn't take.  But, he also revolutionized (if not invented)  the home computing market.  He changed the mp3 player and the smartphone for the better.  In short, his company did make some pretty cool shit.

 

I don't even think that he was that complicated; he was just a dick that made some cool shit.  However, I also don't think that one side of him negates the other; just because he made cool shit doesn't absolve him from being a dick and just because he was a dick doesn't mean that his products weren't cool.

 

 

 

Haha, perfect! I love this, McNooj! It's so true. Jobs was a god, and Gates can spend the rest of his life - the entirety of his fortune - trying to buy respect, to buy admiration, and yet he'll never have that which he covets above all else, that which Jobs so effortlessly possessed: to quote PERFUME; "the invincible power to command the love of all mankind"

 

 

EDIT I have edited this post because upon reflection I feel perhaps I was putting more venom into my writing than was necessary. While my original draft may indeed represent my true feelings on this matter, the key elements of my take were already  clear in my first paragraph and perhaps that is all that needs to be said

 

 

(just MHO, not trying to offend anyone)

Edited by Princess Kate - 10/13/11 at 1:38am

not offended, just baffled :)

 

I do wonder what Jobs would have made of you struggling to change your VGA monitor though!

Way to spectacularly miss the fucking point, Kate. 

 

You are now the inaugural member of my ignore list.

Quote:

WTF

 

I smell a meltdown coming.

God I wish.

 

This is what she's always fucking like.

Kate,

 

Can we ban Kate again? For spamming with ugly as shit obnoxious posts?

 

And I liked Jobs. It's the cult of Apple I hate.

Kate I normally defend you but this post is so spectacularly wrong it beggars belief. 

 

Seconded. She posts only blind hypocritical nonsense, distracts real users from the point at hand, has no interest in genuine discussion, prefers to hear herself reiterate the same idiotic and moronic non-arguments over and over rather than providing legitimate responses to anyone else... this user is purely a hopeless, deluded board-clogger. I'm a new-ish member but I've been lurking for a while and she should've been gone -- gone gone -- ages ago. She's entertaining for her idiocy, but it's not nearly enough to warrant her presence here by CHUD standards.

 

This thread should be evidence to the fact that she is indeed doing harm to the CHUD boards by railroading all normal conversations with pure lunacy and nonsensical drama. Are Nick and co. keeping her around purely as a novelty? A board mascot? "Every creation story needs a devil?" Because really, regardless of whomever allows her account to remain active, she has and will never contribute anything to these boards that doesn't devalue and diminish them.

This is for every single person not named Princess Kate who posted a comment in this thread.  Kate's comments are not the problem.   Your non-stop back and forth with her bemoaning her posts have ruined more threads than I can count, and I am fucking sick of it.  Put her on ignore if you don't like her and leave it at that.  If you feel an uncontrollable urge to speak to her, do it via private message.  The rest of us don't want to see decent threads ruined by this shit.  A thread meant to be a discussion about Steve Jobs has degenerated into this fucked-up bullshit because of your never-failing desire to hop into the bear trap and complain when it snaps shut.    

 

Now shut the fuck up and lock this motherfucking thread. 

 

 

 

 

Ken,

 

I am at an age where I feel it is important to be true to myself and my opinions (though I take care to express them respectfully). I love certain things passionately, and I hate certain things with passion. That is just who I am. I truly loath Bill Gates and MS. I have disliked that man for as long as I can remember having knowledge of his existence. Some might say that is the Cult of Apple, but truth be told I am very comfortable with that label. I love Apple with fierce loyalty, and recent events have proven extremely gratifying for me in that regard. Deep down, in my very core, these are my feelings on Jobs and Gates, and I cannot see the purpose in sugar coating it. If people don't like what I have to say on the matter that is fine, to each their own, but I too am entitled to an opinion, whatever it might be. Those who don't want to hear my opinion can choose to put me on ignore, but to endlessly complain about how I feel on a given issue serves no purpose

 

Peace

Harley -- but Kate is the reason why it degenerated into nothing. Everybody except her came into the thread with something real to say, but her responses alone mitigated everyone else's attempts to say anything. This is how Kate swallows up entire threads -- her idiocy is so tremendous that its maw just can't be avoided.

 

It doesn't make any sense to blame everyone else in the thread for ruining it when Kate is clearly and obviously to blame. Unless she's here to test everyone, in which case I personally will own up to failing the test a hundred times over if it means her disappearance.

If people had her on ignore, ignored her posts, and stayed on topic, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Everyone lining up to react to her is what I am talking about.  I got her on ignore.  I suggest the rest of you follow suit.  

 

Rest in peace Steve.  Thanks for the mouse.